Origins of the word ‘Cunt’.

When this campaign began I knew resolutely that I would use the word ‘Cunt’. It wasn’t so much a decision but a feeling like I had no choice. There simply wasn’t any other word that felt ‘right’. I’ve always liked the word ‘Cunt’ – coming from Ireland, we say it a lot more often that it’s said in the UK.  When I moved here, I began to notice the shocked reaction that I got when I casually said ‘Cunt’ . It was mainly from women. This intrigued me. Language is so interesting with it’s loaded history and resonance. Language is our thread to the past. It seems that the reasons why the word ‘Cunt’ is such a bad word are no longer in our consciousness. When I’ve questioned people about why they find it offensive they struggle to say why ‘IT JUST IS, RIGHT!” If everyone knew the wonderful and varied origins of the word ‘Cunt’ we would all be shouting it from the tree tops in celebration of the Cunt, the gateway to life itself. But these people don’t know the roots and for some unknown reason, the universe has plucked me, amongst others, to help them remember.
Artist Sam Taylor Wood's Ruby necklace
So first of all ‘Cunt’ is the only word in the English language that we can use for the whole of the female genitalia. The word ‘Vagina’ only refers to the inner entrance meaning ‘tunnel’ or ‘scabbard’, a sheath for a sword. As Inga Muscio says “I ain’t got no vagina”. Vulva refers to the clitoris, outer labia majora and minora but not the vagina. We need the word ‘Cunt’ if we want to talk about our incredible sexual orchestra in all its glory.
To do this in an liberated, empowered fashion we need to educate ourselves about the varied and diverse origins of the word from all around the world. Of all the origins the word ‘cunctipotent’ stood out for me the most. It means “all powerful…having cunt-magic” according to Barbara Walker. Jane Caputi has researched this word in depth. Her link is at the bottom of the page. She suggests that instead of ‘listening to our gut’, as we are often told, we can move and speak from our cunt. ‘Cuntspeak’ as she delightfully names it.
I’ve researched this through many avenues and talked to many people. Linguists have debated for a long time over the true roots and it is impossible to really know exactly where is originated. The prefix ‘cu’ has been deemed “quintessentially feminine” and pre-dates written language. Therefore it can be found in the forms of ‘cu’, ‘qu’, ‘ku’, ‘coo’, ‘qy’ or ‘cy’. There are many varied and wonderful lingustic paths I could take along the meandering path of what is the etyomology of this explosive word, so in order to keep it succinct I have only presented what I deem as the juiciest findings. From Goddesses and female figures in Africa, Sumeria, India, China, Japan, Korea and Egypt all the way to the River Cunti in Wiltshire and the stunning Sile Na Gigs in my home town in Kildare, Ireland.


‘Kunta’ means woman in several African languages. It has been found in ancient writings that there was a North African Goddess called ‘Kunda Saharan’ and her tribe are still around today. They are called ‘The Kundas’. It is said that they can trace their roots right back to “the cleft of the Goddess.” It is also recorded that ‘Kunda Saharan’ was worshipped in the Saharan region before the area was a desert. This time period is between 6,000 and 8,000 BC. The Kunda people are in Mozambique, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.

Sumeria (Ancient Iraq)

Here the word Kunta’ means literally ‘one who has female genitalia’. This is linked with the word ‘Cuneiform’ which literally means ‘the sign of the cunta’ or ‘queen who invented writing’. Cuneiform is one of the earliest known forms of writing in Sumeria dating at c.3100 BC. At around the same time there were priestesses named The Quadesha who were accountants at the Temple of Inanna. It is highly likely that Cuneiform was the form of writing the Quadesha used on clay tablets to record the temple’s financial accounts thus making it ‘the Sign of the Cunta’.

Ancient Cuneiform tablet

Inanna was the goddess of love, war, fertility and lust. She was associated with the celestial planet, Venus. She was known as Queen of Heaven and the word ‘Qu’ can also mean love, sensuality, sexuality, the divinity present in all females. She is also connected with extramarital sex and sensual affairs, prowling streets and taverns for sexual adventure. There are hymns from Sumerian sacred texts which glorify Inanna’s sexuality and sang praises to her beautiful and soft Cunt. Interestingly the Quadesha are also cited in some texts as ‘Sacred Whores’.

Goddess Inanna, Sumeria (Ancient Iraq)


It is believed that the word ‘Cunt’ came from the Proto German word ‘Kunto’ which is said to have come from the Indo-European word ‘Kunti’ which is the name of a much respected and revered Hindu goddess who was also known as ‘Cunti-Devi’ and is said to be the ruler of ‘Kunta’ which we know as ‘Kundalini’ energy. The snake like feminine energy that travels up our spine. Legend stories say how she sang to the gods to call them to sleep with her. She eventually had a son with the Sun God, Surya and ‘The Teachings of Queen Kunti’ can still be read today.  Many say that ‘Cunt’ derived from the Oriental Great Goddess Cunti, also known in ancient Hinduism as the ‘Yoni of the Universe’ (yoni means ‘sacred temple’ in Sanskrit and is used to describe the womb and cunt). Also Indian children who were born out of wedlock were know as ‘Kuntas’ and revered as gifts of the Goddess Kunti’. The word ‘Kunda’ is also used in India for a hole or pit in the ground (agni-kunda, fire-pit) for storing fire on alters in the Vedic religion.

China, Japan and Korea

Remembering the ‘CU’, ‘QU’ and ‘KU’ connection, we can understand how ‘Cunt’ is believed to be linked with the popular Buddhist Goddess of Compassion and Mercy is ‘Kuan-yin’ or ‘Quan Yin’ or ‘Kunnon’. She carries the Goddess and Divine Mother aspect of Buddhism and is generally regarded by many as the protector of women and children and is also seen as a fertility goddess capable of granting children.  Some say ‘Cunda’ was the name of the Buddha’s mother according to the Japanese but all I can find is that is was possibly the name of a female blacksmith who fed the Buddha his last meal of either mushrooms or pork. He fell violently ill and then became enlightened.
Kuan Yin, China

Kuan Yin, China

Ancient Canaan, Eygpt

Here, Qudshu or Qetesh is venerated as the fertility goddess of sacred ecstasy and sexual pleasure and is depicted holding snakes in one hand and a lotus flower in the other as symbols of creation. She is called ‘Mistress of All the Gods’, ‘Lady of the Stars of Heaven’ and ‘Great of magic, mistress of the stars’.
Qudshu, Caanite Goddess, Eygpt

Qudshu, Caanite Goddess, Eygpt

All of this searching led me to thinking about links to Britain, where I live and Ireland, where I’m from and I was over the moon to find rich roots this side of the world too.


The River ‘Kennet’ in Wiltshire was known as ‘Cunnit’ until 1740 and many people believe this is related to our favourite word. It is a beautiful, vibrant river and a home to many species of plants, animals and fish. One of the Kennet’s sources is a chalk cave named Swallowhead Spring near Silbury Hill, a prehistoric artificial chalk mound which is part of the UNESCO Heritage site that includes Stonehenge and Avebury. At 40 metres it is the tallest human-made mound in Europe and one of the largest in the world. It is thought to be approximately 4750 years old. Many people believe that it was built as a representation of the pregnant belly of a Celtic Goddess called ‘Sil’ or ‘Sulis’ who was worshipped in that area of Celtic Britain and in north-western France. Her name tells us she was both a sun and an eye-goddess (eyes =wisdom and all-seeing, just like the sun).  And local historian, Michael Dames believes that the quarry surrounding it was deliberately shaped to resemble the rest of her head, neck and body. He takes this one step further by suggesting that if Silbury Hill is the pregnant belly, then the cave from which the Swallowhead Spring begins is ‘The Cunt’ with the River Cunnit flowing from it

River Cunnit with Silbury Hill Mound in the background.


There are ancient stone sculptures of women all over Ireland and the UK on old churches and castles. These incredible figures are known as the Sile Na Gig (pronounced Sheela Na Gee) and are all sitting in a squating position with their hands holding their cunts open. Wide open. They are seen by many as ‘The Divine Hag’ or ‘The Sacred Whore’  or as a fertility symbol.  It is believed that they were seen to ward off evil and the Christians allowed them on churches to appease the Celts whose sacred sites they were building churches on.  I am in love with them. I found two in my home town, Kildare recently and can’t describe the feeling of touching such ancient stone that was made with such intent to honour the power of women’s Cunts. As I have been researching the word ‘Cunt’, I have wanted find a link to these figures in Ireland and I have. One of the connection lies with the Celtic Goddess ‘Sil’ who is represented in the ancient mound and surrounding landscape and the River ‘Cunnit’ (Kennett) in Wiltshire. Irish linguists believe it is very likely that the goddess ‘Sil’ is connected with the ‘Aos Sidhe’ (pronounced Aus Shee) people in ancient Irish folklore who were also known as the ‘fairy folk’ and are still believed today by some to live in forts and glens all over Ireland.
The word ‘Gee’ is commonly used in place of ‘Cunt’ today in Ireland and is seen to be linked to ‘Ghee’ in Sanskrit, the clarified butter from South Aisa. There is a special dish called ‘Kunda’ in India which is made from ghee and milk. Today in India,  Ghee is also used on the genitals of statues of the Goddess Yakshi, a fertility earth goddess in the quest to aid fertility. Cows are sacred in India and traditionally ‘Ghee’  was made from only cows milk. The 19 Priestesses of the Goddess Brigid of Kildare made their own special type of ‘Ghee’ from sacred cows that lived on their land. This was used for cuts and wounds during childbirth and as wax for the fire that was kept lit there in honour of Brigid for over 1000 years.
Some people also claim that the Goddess Kilda is Ireland’s counterpart to India’s Goddess Kunti who resided in Kildare. The Goddess Kilda allegedly had shrines all over Ireland until the Christians came and destroyed them. Is it possible that the Sile Na Gigs are connected somehow to Kilda’s shrines? I believe so and am determined to finding out more so stay tuned to my unfolding journey into the world of Cunt and Sile Na Gigs! It also is claimed that ‘Kil‘ in old Irish means ‘cave’ and I have read articles that are sure that ‘cave’ is relating to the ultimate cave in the female body – The Cunt.
Cunt is used a lot in Ireland but not in the extreme derogatory way it is in the UK and US. We say it in an almost playful fashion and there is even the word ‘Cunteen’ which is a variation for a young person deemed a ‘Cunt’. Legend has it that in Ireland the word ‘Cunt’ was once a birthing call for women in labour. This one made me smile… I know what I’ll be screaming when the day comes for me to give birth. CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNTTTTTTTT!!

61 thoughts on “Origins of the word ‘Cunt’.

  1. The word cunt can be found written as quaint in the forms of ‘queinte’ and ‘queynte’ in Chaucer’s The Miller’s Tale.

  2. I’ve also seen it spelled Quoint, though I can’t remember where. And then there’s Quim. (By the way, about Cunda – in Pali/Sanskrit, the C is pronounced Ch like in Chair – so Cunda sounds like Choondah.)

  3. thank you very much for this inspiring research…..its like an archaeological dig into words and symbols that some people, mainly christian leaders, found too hot to handle and therefore suppressed them……this article for me reawakens a little more the omnipotence that lies at the core of my being

  4. in one definition of the word ‘cunctipotent’ it says ‘………as well as the four-letter word beginning with cun- which I will leave unstated’ For me, it is a difficult word to say….this article brings new light to the word which allows me at least to write publicly for the first time : cunt…..there….now, that wasn’t so bad!!!

  5. also I have found the abundance of sile na gig imagery in ancient ireland to be very inspiring….it dispels a lot of the sexual hangups, mine anyway!!!….and allows for a much greater flow of energy… me anyway!!!….you may be interested to know of a coffee/bookshop in county tipperary called ‘sheelagh na gig’

    • The Sile’s are so inspiring, aren’t they? They completely took over my dreams for a few months last year. I want more Irish people to know about them. They certainly to liberate and educate us about sexuality and the power of women. I’ll check out the cafe too, thanks x big cunty love x

  6. it seems to me that it is through the crack, the crevice, the cunt of our existance that we maintain the connection with the root of our being, our connection with mother nature, our connection with source…..and in order to maintain these connection to this oneness, the crack, crevice, the cunt is given to us in a meriad of magical manners some obvious some not so obvious….if we only have the eyes to see

  7. Concerning Avebury/West Kennet: It has always struck me as highly fitting that much of the archaeological work done there in the first part of the 20th century was performed by Mrs Maud Cunnington. A more appropriate name would be hard to find!

  8. when i was growing up and at school for our sex education we were given a book to read ( late 50s and early 60s teachers were shy and so were we )and in this book i remember reading “CUNT” was a saxon word used to describe the sheath farmers would carry aroud their waist to put the stone used to sharpen their scythes when harvesting the corn/wheat etc . I can’t remember the book ‘s title but i have never forgotten the paragraph, I was 10yo in 1960 and hormones running wild , and we (boys) would look up all the “naughty” words we knew .

    • Wow Paul. That’s so interesting. I’ve never heard that and can’t find anything online about it. I know that ‘vagina’ means sheath for a sword so maybe it’s connected with that somehow?

  9. Lovely to read all the non-european roots of the word. I have always felt it a shame that there is no word in English that is respectful or non-medical/anatomical for women’s sexual parts. The East is full of such words, and here, the entire sex act has been debased through the debasement of women and their body parts. I gues sits what happens when you appropriate the language but ignore the culture in which the language originated.

  10. I was called a cunt yesterday and decided I would investigate the word. I really appreciate all this. You did an excellent job compiling it together. And now I am 110% sure that I am not a cunt. But I won’t be so offended when someone uses it. Thank you!!!

  11. I am not sure but the photo depicting goddess kunti i think is inaccurate. It seems more like scene where draupadi is being stripped and krishna is providing the endless saari to prevent the shame. A scene where pandavas lose in gambling game.

    Btw very interesting article. I did not know about the possible connection with kunti but its sounds intriguing.

  12. Pingback: How to look good naked… hmm… | Entente Féminine in English

  13. Pingback: Woman, love your cunt.

  14. Fascinating stuff. Two things to add:
    - I think quoint is from Chaucer
    - Your mime of the Sheela contains the BSL hand sign for ‘cunt’. We were signing it with our daughter instead of ‘diamond’ in ‘Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. Oops.

  15. Pingback: Origins of the word CUNT | escorts are for women too

  16. Odd. I always assumed (with no evidence whatsoever it must be said) that the word ‘cunt’ was an anglo-saxon abbreviation of cunny, which in turn was a variant of “coney” which is the word for “rabbit fur”, and is sometimes used as another word for “rabbit”. Just like pussy, it denotes something soft and stroke-able :)

    Also, rabbit ears have a vaguely similar shape.

    As I say, I have no evidence for that at all… but it just “seemed right” to me.

  17. Excellent work – I enjoyed reading this with my 12yr old son, having first read it myself and decided it is entirely appropriate given his predisposition for using this word at volume when arguing with his counterparts in Australia over Xbox live – those Aussies use the word LOTS, while we New Zealanders mostly find it highly offensive. Having read your blog, I decided to write a comment on your wondering as to why the English (and the NZders) do find it so offensive. I think it reflects a long history of women being oppressed, denigrated, and subjugated to men – who, rather than worshiping woman gave them a really hard time for many many centuries, so that eventually the suffragettes and then the feminists fought oppression, and for respect for woman and for equality – viva la difference etc. The word became even more disliked (and offensive) to woman, as it was became a swear or ‘cuss’ word – to abuse women who didn’t like to be called that word – as it represented the woman is being abused, as she was referenced as ONLY being about her sex bits, when lots of women were angry as they knew they were so much more than that. Women have spirituality, hearts, minds and the whole that makes up a person, man or woman. Women even have other sporting/athletic talents beyond sexing and emasculating men by taming the sword, so to speak. So the word was and still is offensive, when used in that context and given the culture of men oppressing women and referring to them as their sex parts to abuse them. It is worse than being called a Dick, because men’s culture encourages them to love their dicks and to expose their priviate parts to others – hence communal showers in mens sports clubs and single booths for women. Being called a “dick” is not as offensive as when a man calls a woman a cunt. The word was and still is used to debase a woman singularly and all women collectively. Also, it has something to do with woman as sex objects, which hasn’t got much to do with procreation, or love or worship of fertility. Personally, I prefer the conception of woman’s ‘power’ being in fertility and procreation, and more to do with the womb and the ovary plump with eggs, rather than her ‘godliqualities’ bein about the bits that provide for a bit of sport and pleasure that is enticement, seduction and the power of lust and what goes on between parties to sexual activity. Yes, it’s fun to be attractive, but that ‘power’ isn’t the one we should all aspire to. It’s OK to not care about being sexy, and to try to be a top corporate lawyer – now that is power, that women find sexy in a man, so why not men finding competent women sexy – guess what, most men would still worship at the ‘cunt’ sexigoddess, to the ambitious entrepreneur, funny that. If only there was a single word for the whole of the fertility organs – that would be a GREAT word, that I might get excited about… Actually, you might be interested… in NZ Maori, the word “whenua” meaning land, also means placenta. The placenta is sacred and must be buried in the child’s whenua – or homeland. A Maori must be then buried in their whenua, when they die, no matter where in the world they die. Maori are “Tangata Whenua”, which we translate as the People of the Land – probably a misnomer, given land and placenta are same word… they might also be people of the placenta, i.e. people – not fish, not birds, not trees, not rocks. not rivers etc, all of which have their own ‘life force’ or mauri, and are also related to the people through genealogy connecting them all to the tight family of Gods, one for each element – the air, the water, the land, the sky, the ocean (etc). Earth mother, sky father, brother forest, brother ocean, brother air/wind etc – watch Avatar, made in NZ. The cunt is an important word, but as a concept to worship – well it’s a good thing for sure – but there is still soooo much more to us – REALLY.

  18. Love the article
    I have some info on the word
    It was a Celtic word which was made derogatory by Anglo Saxons
    And it is linked to Country

    Cunt tree
    Is the land
    Is the woman
    Is the mothers line

    I would love to return to Ireland and see the ancient stones at Kildare xxx

  19. Excellent. Sometimes there is no other word to express deep feeling. The French use it all the time, in everyday use (con). the reason the French call a computor an ordinateur is because ‘computor’ in French is “cunt-whore”!

  20. Very interesting article.The picture used for ‘Kunti’ actually shows her daughter in law Draupadi, who was publicly molested and the image depicts the God Krishna saving her from it.Kunti is actually an ordinary princess(which makes her even cooler than being a Goddess, I think) who is given a divine boon to seduce any God she likes.Both Draupadi and Kunti are amazing female characters from the epic Mahabharata.

  21. Reblogged this on Happy Feminism and commented:
    In one of my other posts for this week, Sophia Wallace reveals that the majority of today’s profanity revolves around the female genitalia or the shame of being on the receiving end of male genitalia. Although each of these concepts should be neutral (if not positive), society has distorted the language around this subject to be something overwhelming negative. Realizing that this has not always been the case, Cherish the Cunt’s post introduces many of the theories revolving around the origin of the word “cunt,” including one describing it as both magical and all powerful.

  22. I wonder if Ghee has some relationship to the word Chi, sometimes spelled Qi? It would make sense as similar concept of Life Force, like Kundalini.

  23. Pingback: Ghana Homepage, Business, News, Politics, Sports, Entertainment, Health, Tourism, Travel -

  24. I believe one of the most immediate sources of the English word is the Latin ‘cunnus’, meaning the vulva, The word might have come into Britain with the Roman occupation, because I daresay the occupiers paid a fair bit of attention to the vulvae of the Britons, as occupiers are wont to do. Its ‘poshest’ form is in the word for that loveliest of erotic pleasures, ‘cunnilingus’. A related Latin word is ‘cuneus’, a wedge, rather descriptive of the cunt itself and also found in the word ‘cuneiform’ – as detailed by your site. Congratulations on your work. Much conflict might be avoided if humans could stop having good/bad reactions to mere labels, and learnt to give rational and appreciative consideration to the objects themselves. And as many of your commentators observe, the object you’ve chosen for your study is surely the most vital and beautiful one there is. Without cunts we wouldn’t be here. I’m also much in favour of the the word ‘yoni’ which should be better known globally because, as I understand it, it stands for more than just a ‘temple’. It represents the female principle O-rigin of all things at all levels – e.g. the circle or O-rifice of a galaxy, or even of the Big Bang, no punning intended. I have a lovely brass candle-holder representing the yoni and its male principle counterpart, the lingam, (or cunt and cock in Anglo-Saxon English) and would be happy to send you a digital photo for your site on request. It’s so pleasing to see somebody demonstrating the root syllables of language: deep meaning comes from them, So thank you Cherisher. Thanks also to D.H. Lawrence, who suffered much for being an earlier pioneer of the process of restoring lusty Anglo-Saxon words to their rightful place in what is probably the world’s most widely-spoken lingua-franca. CW.

  25. Yes, Jim Bliss, cunt IS related to cunny, but not as its derivative. The other way around. Cunny is the diminutive of cunt. Yes, lots of tie-ins with little furry critters (ergo, also called pussy and mouse). In Britain in times past, punsters had a heyday with poems about ferrets chasing coneys down the cunny-hole. See The 1812 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. I found a ton of good information for a paper I wrote on it all. Word of caution: all the old dictionaries like this tend to quote one another, so I never could find who did some of the original work.

    And it’s considered good luck to wet your finger before you touch the cunny of a Sheela-na-gig. Good manners are always appreciated!

  26. I live in Spain (I’m Scottish) and like you say is the case in Ireland, the Spanish equivalent word for cunt (coño – pronounced as cone-yo) is used all the time here, but not at all in the way it is used in the UK and the US.

    The first time I heard this word used in public here was in a crowded bar, and the person saying it (very loudly) was a woman. I looked around, expecting to see disapproving looks from others nearby, especially from some of the other women, but no one batted an eyelid.

    The word, coño, can be used in Spanish in the hard derogatory sense it is used in the UK and the US, but most of the time it is used in a mild form, and both sexes use it freely – even in what might be considered polite company.

  27. And then there is the rabbit. A rabbit used to be called a “coney”, pronounced to rhyme with “honey”. (We still have the old word in a disguised version as the baby-talk “bunny”, also an old slang term for cunt). We started calling coneys rabbits about the same time as we started calling cocks “roosters” and asses “donkeys” and for the same reason.

    Hence of course the Easter Bunny. Really the Easter Bunny is a hare, a magical creature in its own right, and sexual too, Shakespeare continually puns on hare and whore. Witches turned into hares. But Easter is a fertility festival and so “bunny” fits. What kind of bunny produces eggs? A menstruating bunny.

  28. Pingback: Call for Cuntcraft Stories and Photos | Cherish The Cunt

  29. Pingback: Introducing The 28 Day Cunt Loving Quest | Cherish The Cunt

  30. In endemic South American linguistic styles many of them have ‘kun’ at their root (or as itself) for a word for ‘female genitalia’. More interestingly this appears to have come about independently from Western (or even Eastern!) cultures….or did it? Some suggest it is proof of an ancient link between even more ancient cultures the globe over.

  31. I ♥ that you are on a quest to familiarise people with the true power and meaning of the cunt. From a book called Phallic Worship I found a meaning of Cunts being high priestesses who had sexual union with people to bring them to a higher level of spirituality! And that the word was later bastardised by a male dominated christian church. All hail the power of the Cunt ♥

  32. how poor is english speaking world without knowing of eastern Europe, what about “kunda” from western Slavs? (espec. Czechs) definitely same meaning as the english “cunt” ;)

  33. Thank you…I found this very interesting. I have to laugh whenever someone gets their panties in a wad over it…the U.S. seems to be the only country with such a huge feeling of offense toward using the word.

  34. Thank you…I appreciated this. I find it laughable whenever anyone gets their panties in a wad over the word. The U.S. seems to be the only country to find offense with its use…lol.

  35. I don’t think it’s the word itself that people object to so much as its use as a _pejorative_ :)

    Similarly, gay people don’t object to people using the word ‘gay’ to mean homosexual, they object to it being used to mean ‘lame’.

    Why do people react negatively to ‘cunt’ but not to ‘vagina’? Because people don’t say “you’re such a vagina” with spittle flying as they do with the former :)

  36. If/when anyone calls me a cunt, insultingly, my response is:

    Let’s see, cunts spit out 10lb+ babies, withstand jackhammeresque pounding, and are the source of divine pleasure….

    so, please DO call me a cunt ;)

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 57 other followers

%d bloggers like this: